Unique clay bar question...

[WRAPT C5Z06]

With polish, if the clear coat is harder, most of the time you have to use a more aggressive polish or pad to correct the paint. With clay bars, can the same logic be used for removing contamination?

[Lasthope05]

Yes you can. If a car has a harder clear you can sometimes get away with using a more agressive claybar without marring. Just make sure you are using a good lubricant.


(Dont take this the wrong way, but you should just post your questions in the claybar thread that you already have. This has been your 3rd thread about claybars and it would be alot better to ask a question in those threads instead of cluttering the forums.)

[WRAPT C5Z06]

(Dont take this the wrong way, but you should just post your questions in the claybar thread that you already have. This has been your 3rd thread about claybars and it would be alot better to ask a question in those threads instead of cluttering the forums.)

Good point. I just got a little too excited yesterday.

[Mike Phillips]

With polish, if the clear coat is harder, most of the time you have to use a more aggressive polish or pad to correct the paint. With clay bars, can the same logic be used for removing contamination?

2 comments...

When removing defects the softness or hardness of the paint matters because you're trying to remove small particles of paint in a controlled manner.

When removing above surface bonded contaminants the softness or hardness of the paint doesn't matter as it relates to the actual removal of the above surface bonded contaminants as the removal process is about abrading the contaminants, not the paint itself.

As for Clay Haze, which is a kinder and more gentle way of describing light scratches it's possible to put into paint when using aggressive clay bars, then theoretically if a paint is harder it will resist scratching better but I don't think this matters much when it comes to clear coat paints.

Clear coat paints can be very hard and still scratches very easily and then because of the clear over a colored base configuration of the paint system the scratches show up very easily to our eyes.

This is why clear coat paints are referred to as scratch-sensitive.


Back in 2002 when I first started posting to CorvetteForum I found all the members and even the gurus over there always talking about how soft the paint was on their Corvettes? I had know idea what they were talking about because from my background of working on zillions of different types of cars, I'm pretty good at comparing paint hardness between paint systems and I knew the paint on modern Corvettes was and is very hard.

I pointed this out long enough on that forum and MOL and even Autopia and in my classes that together with other peoples observations to the same paint that now days everyone has it figured out, but it wasn't always like that.

The key word is scratch-sensitive and the key problem is most people don't understand how a surface coating can be hard but still scratch very easily.

Ah.... forum history....

[WRAPT C5Z06]

2 comments...



When removing above surface bonded contaminants the softness or hardness of the paint doesn't matter as it relates to the actual removal of the above surface bonded contaminants as the removal process is about abrading the contaminants, not the paint itself.

Yet again, Mr. Mike Phillips makes comes through with a perfect, easy to understand answer.

[superwhite]

Will claying remove sealants and waxes? I have felt it would but would like to know from a pro.

[Shane731]

Will claying remove sealants and waxes? I have felt it would but would like to know from a pro.

There is an excellent thread on Meguiar's Online about this: Does Claying Really Remove Wax? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online

[superwhite]

There is an excellent thread on Meguiar's Online about this: Does Claying Really Remove Wax? - Car Care Forums: Meguiar's Online

Read the thread, just a lot of back and forth over the subject. Still leaves me with no absolute answer.

[Shane731]

Read the thread, just a lot of back and forth over the subject. Still leaves me with no absolute answer.

IMO, claying removes at least some or most of the wax, but not all of it. Go back and read posts 23 - 25 in the MOL thread I posted. Note from some of the other posts that the car still beaded water even after claying, which might not necessarily indicate the presence of wax but rather the presence of silicones and whatnot from the spray detailer used as a clay lube. Also, as pointed out, going over the surface after claying with an IPA solution removed all traces of wax or spray detailer that may have been present. Presumably, if you used something non-chemical such as water as a clay lube, then you would have no beading at all, however you would run the risk of marring the surface since water itself obviously does not provide enough lubrication against the paint. I don't know that there is a definitive answer unless scientific testing is done. Just my two cents.

[Mike Phillips]

I just replied to that thread and I'll stand by my comment made in post #11 on page 2 and my new post #63 on page 7




My first answer in that thread is a form of presenting ideas in their extreme which helps sometimes on discussion forums because there's always a segment of members that take everything to extremes...

So to quote myself,

When you rub a clay bar with pressure over a waxed, painted surface are you adding wax?

That's a reply to this question,

Does Claying Really Remove Wax?

And while everyone can discuss and disect the idea into enternety, here's was my reply to my good friend Mikejl's conclusion,

I stand by my original conclusion which is I'm sure there is some wax removal where bonded contaminants were cleaned from the surface, but not where the clay traveled over already smooth surface.

Mike

Makes sense.

Of course the huge variables here are,

• Downward pressure
• Number of passes
• Thoroughness of claying over each square inch being clayed
• Aggressiveness of the clay
• Lubricity of the clay lube

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple but I notice the trend for at least a segment of online enthusiasts is to take things that are very simple and over complicate them.

Scenario I
If you use a medium to aggressive clay bar with firm downward pressure for a dozen passes over a section about 12" square and you do this thoroughly with a normal spray detailer, say Quik Detailer, at a minimum the wax or sealant coating will be compromised and if it's my car it will be compromised enough that I"m going to add a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant.

Scenario II
If you use an Ultra Fine Clay with very light pressure for just a few passes to say you made a few passes over a section about 12" square using a high lubricity detailer like Last Touch NOT diluted, then at a minimum, the wax or paint sealant will be compromised enough that afterwards I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant to that area.


The argument could be made in the last scenario that not enough wax or paint sealant would be removed to make a difference and if that's what a person thinks then I'm okay with that, detailing is so subjective.

Where the rubber meets the road...
But in either scenario, if it's my car that's being clayed, I'm going to re-apply a fresh coat of wax or paint sealant and that's the only scenario that matters... at least to me...




Another aspect of detailing discussion forums is that members will discuss and dissect a topic to death until everyone has their say and everyone's made up their mind. That's what makes a public discussion forum a public discussion forum.

Cyberfun in the Cyberworld!