Confused about Fillers

[Jossy92]

22 years old with lots of scratches? How did they get into the well cared for car?

Learned a lot in the last 2 years. Prior to that I used Megs Cleaner Wax to passionately grind surface contaminants into the finish.

Undone most of this damage. However, still unsure of the nature of the problem.

You have answered my question. I am going to assume I have some sort of failure and proceed with caution.

Facing the front of the car, the hood has thousands of little scratches going in all different directions. They are evenly distributed over the center 1/3 of the hood. They don't look like pictures I have seen of cc failure.

I am going to answer your other questions:

Did you buy it new?
Has the hood been repainted?

Yes, in '87
Never repainted

If it's leaving scratches it's not mild and you should stop using it as there are products that will remove defects without also instilling scratches at the same time.

Used Megs ScratchX and not SwirlX [correction], gradually increasing pressure as I experimented over the period of a couple of weeks and didn't see a difference in the defects I was addressing.

One day saw straight scratches from my improper, too aggressive use of that great product and assumed the scratches were under the CC. Maybe just an illusion.

Nourished? What have been applying?

Prior to starting to learn:
Various products including car washes and finally settling on Megs cleaner wax.

After:
All Megs:
-Gold Class wash with foam gun
-QD + mild clay
-M07
-Cleaner wax
-NXT

It's real possible to make it look better, that would mean make the clear coat more clear so you can see the color underneath of it. It may not be possible to remove all the scratches. Even if you don't remove all the scratches, making the paint more clear will make it look better even with all the scratches.

I think this is the answer.
Thanks for finding my question: How to deal with a defect that can't be removed.

The cleaner the car the worse it looks to me. All I see are the scratches when the sun is at the right angle.

Again, sorry for any confusion but you don't want a filler. IF you just want one product...

Am doing it by hand to learn the "feel". Multi-step is fine.
You have set forth some options in your post. I will try ColorX if it turns out it's a surface defect.

BTW would usng M21/NXT make the defect stand out more because I've read it makes the paint really reflective ?

Was thinking of putting M26 over the NXT on the hood, but, then I read that it gives the paint more depth....might make it more noticeable. I want to have a really nice looking defect until I learn more about re-painting.

Hope that helps...

Thanks Mike, I learn slowly, but, it's fun and you know how to teach. I will post again when I get some pics.

[Mike Phillips]

Please don't apologize, sometimes intention doesn't come over the Internet (especially with my dry humor) and my intent in my second post was to help you help me (and any others will similar problems) by rephrasing my question.

Completely understand, years ago I coined the phrase,

"Time to push away from the keyboard"

I can be hard to understand intent from just the typed word and it's best not to make assumptions because that can get you into trouble. When in doubt, it's better to push away from the keyboard and maybe tackle another project.

I guess my question was what do I do when I am not sure if the defect to my original paint is damage to the clear coat versus separation of the base coat from the primer coat: May be just be an illusion. I am afraid to get aggressive.

If the basecoat is separating from the primer coat it's going to look like the paint has a rash. I started a thread on the topic of clearcoat failure but I have to be upfront and say that I don't have enough pictures added to it yet that cover the wide spectrum of different examples of this problem.

I keep a camera with me all the time just for this purpose and so far here in Florida all I've come across is extreme examples of clearcoat failure, nothing in the lesser range.

Here's the thread, as I come across more cars in parking lots with different variations of this problem I'll continue to build-up the photos from which to look at and compare to what's in a person's garage as this is a common problem.

The Clearcoat Failure Photo Gallery Archive


Here's the one I created on MOL, it has more variations to look through, I can't just copy and paste this over here as that would be unethical and illegal, so with time and persistence I'll continue to build a new archive of examples over here.


The Clearcoat Failure Photo Archive


Maybe scroll through the above two threads and see if the problem you're seeing with your car's paint looks like any of the photos in these two threads.

For the most part, the only thing you can fix when it comes to automotive paints are problems on the surface. You are limited as to what you can do by the thickness or film-build of the clear layer of paint.

So as long as the problem is topical and not too deep you can usually remove the defects completely, or improve the defect to the point that you can live with them versus repaint the car.

If you can get a picture of some of the worst areas and e-mail it to me I will upload it and insert it into this thread so everyone following this thread can chime in with their thoughts or suggestions.

more when I figure out how to do a multiquote.............

It's kind of a pain but makes for easier reading, but here's how most people including myself do this, you need to switch over to edit mode and then break up the sections you want to address separately like I did above by sandwiching the different portions between quote tags.

Here's a screen shot showing what I'm talking about in this thread,





I'll create a thread with the above picture too because some people might not know what those little buttons do.

[Mike Phillips]

You were too fast and posted the below before I could post my follow-up but I think we're on the same page now. Let me add a few comments...

You have answered my question. I am going to assume I have some sort of failure and proceed with caution.

Facing the front of the car, the hood has thousands of little scratches going in all different directions. They are evenly distributed over the center 1/3 of the hood. They don't look like pictures I have seen of cc failure.

The Honda Pilot we bought new in 2004, original paint, never been wrecked, has little tiny cracks in the clear coat on the hood and that's the only place. They are very short cracks, about like this,

---

and are evenly distributed throughout most of the hood. They cannot be fixed without repainting because they are not a defect on the surface, they run throughout the entire layer of clear or the entire matrix of the clear layer of paint.

Sanding the paint would just remove paint and a deeper portion of the crack.

My guess is this is a heat related problem as it's only the hood that has been affected - engine heat under the hood, Mojave Desert heat on the top of the hood. It could also be related to expansion and contraction due to extreme temperature changes over time.

Just a guess...

I am going to answer your other questions:

Yes, in '87
Never repainted

In the old days, a person was lucky if the paint lasted a few years, so 22 years is a pretty good run!

Used Megs SwirlX, gradually increasing pressure as I experimented over the period of a couple of weeks and didn't see a difference in the defects I was addressing.

One day saw straight scratches from my improper, too aggressive use of that great product and assumed the scratches were under the CC. Maybe just an illusion.

Clear coat paints are hard to work on, especially by hand as compared to old style single stage lacquers and enamels. It has to do with the type of paint as old style paints are more polishable, they are more malleable, while clear coat paints are kind of like a layer of hard plastic on the car.

There's a term from the old days that goes like this,

"Hand rubbed lacquer finish"

The reason craftsman/detailers from days gone by could hand rub lacquer paint was because compared to today's paints it's very soft, except for white paint due to the pigment type.

This is why you don't hear the phrase,

"Hand rubbed basecoat/clearcoat finish"

You can hand rub out a basecoat/clearcoat finish but it's a ton of work. Heck rubbing out a lacquer finish is a ton of work, doing the same on a bc/cc finish is a ton of work multiplied by a zillion.

This is the primary reason tools like the dual action polisher have become so popular. The human hand cannot outperform the machine.j

but it can be done as I demonstrated in these two threads,

Man versus Machine

1-Step versus 3-Step Process by Hand


And show to a small section of a hood at every Detailing 101 class.

Prior to starting to learn:
Various products including car washes and finally settling on Megs cleaner wax.

After:
All Megs:
-Gold Class wash with foam gun
-QD + mild clay
-M07
-Cleaner wax
-NXT

M07 is non-abrasive but a popular and very old product. Meguiar's A12 Cleaner/Wax is a very light cleaner/wax, I wouldn't try to actually remove swirls out of a clear coat paint with it as there are much better, faster and easier to get good results out of products, i.e. UC

I think this is the answer.
Thanks for finding my question: How to deal with a defect that can't be removed.

Yeperdoo...

Something just can't be fixed.

The cleaner the car the worse it looks to me. All I see are the scratches when the sun is at the right angle.

The more you workout the fine or shallow defects the more the remaining deeper defects will stand out like a sore thumb. One of 2-steps forward, 1-step back kind of things but in my opinion I would opt for working out the shallow defects.

An philosophy I practiced when I used to detail cars full time was,

Take a car's finish to its maximum potential

This means do the best you can with what you have to work with. You can't fix every defect in every paint job but what you can do is take a car's finish to it's maximum potential.

Funny story, there was a group of guy that started a now dead forum and one of the members I'm guessing was making light of that saying and his signature line read,

Taking my signature line to it's maximum potential

Every time I read that it just made me laugh.

Like Popeye says... (Paraphrased)

I yam what I yam...

Am doing it by hand to learn the "feel". Multi-step is fine.
You have set forth some options in your post. I will try ColorX if it turns out it's a surface defect.

ColorX compared to most cleaner/waxes is a fairly strong cleaner/wax, no one should read into this and think there are rocks in the bottle, it's not that kind of product.

Remember, besides product you have application material, application process, time and pressure. Lots of factors that go into how aggressive or non-aggressive a product can be.

BTW would using M21/NXT make the defect stand out more because I've read it makes the paint really reflective ?

I actually don't think so myself, not at this point where you've already been working on the paint and improving the overall appearance. At least no more so than any other quality paint sealant. Other's might have a different opinion.

I buffed out a car for a person one time that a couple of good ol boys painted for her in their garage. The hood had so much overspray on it you couldn't see the paint underneath of it. I removed the overspray and then buffed the paint clear, after restoring clarity to the clearcoat you could see wacky patterns in the metallic flake where the painter moved the spray gun closer and then father a way from the surface as he moved the gun back and forth.

At first the lady thought I caused the problem from the way I buffed out the car. When I explained to her the color and the metallic flake were UNDER the clear coat and that I was working on the top of the clear coat and there was no way I could affect the color of the way the flake laid down she eventually understood and thats when the old saying

You get what you pay for

Sunk in as it relates to letting a couple of good ol boys paint your car in their garage.

No one knew how wacky the paint job turned out till the overspray was removed and clarity restored to the clear coat, then it became very apparent. So sometimes fixing a paint job reveals a problem or defects in the paint job.

Was thinking of putting M26 over the NXT on the hood, but, then I read that it gives the paint more depth....might make it more noticeable. I want to have a really nice looking defect until I learn more about re-painting.

M26 is a good product, I always tell people to do a test spot when layering one product over another product, that is only apply the second product to a small section and then compare the test section to the surrounding paint with the first product on it and do this in different light settings. Make sure the topper is in fact taking the finish to a higher level and not diminishing the appearance. I've seen both thing happen with different products.

If you apply the topper wax to the entire car how would you know if it looked better or worse? By memory? Better to test.

Thanks Mike, I learn slowly, but, it's fun and you know how to teach. I will post again when I get some pics.

Sounds good...