Water Spot Issues after Coatings are applied and how Paint reacts to hot and cold temperatures

[Mike lambert]

If I do a car that has water spots I use the IR lamp to make sure the spot are gone. If not I do what is needed to remove the remaining marks. Obviously measuring the paint as I go. We coat a lot of collector cars mainly for the ease of maintenance for the client, but as a side effect they look great. It has been my experience that you can notice a slightly different color when the coating is removed. You also have to be really concerned with residue control and clean the pads after every pass, if you're not doing that now. If I have a car that is coated I do charge extra as I won't re use those pads.

[Mantilgh]

Thank you Mike for providing some good real life feedback!

[chefwong]

Mike -

Not a pro, just a joe. I've tossed the applicators and consider the MF a consumable to be tossed after application.

Does the residue in coating when polishing off create "noticable micromarring", that requires either frequent cleaning /swapping of pads - per your last comment

[Mike lambert]

Absolutely,!

[Velocitybts]

If I do a car that has water spots I use the IR lamp to make sure the spot are gone. If not I do what is needed to remove the remaining marks. Obviously measuring the paint as I go. We coat a lot of collector cars mainly for the ease of maintenance for the client, but as a side effect they look great. It has been my experience that you can notice a slightly different color when the coating is removed. You also have to be really concerned with residue control and clean the pads after every pass, if you're not doing that now. If I have a car that is coated I do charge extra as I won't re use those pads.

Thank you Mike, This is what I am after for discussion about coatings. You did answer the water spot issue perfectly. Most people don't know or understand that when water spots occur the panels are typically heated up by the sun, which expands them. Then the water dries leaving the chemical residue and then the panel contracts taking a portion of the chemicals with it. Now its embedded in the paint itself to a degree and the only way to be really sure you have removed all the spots is to heat the panel up so they fully show up, then remove them. The contracting and expanding of panels under heat is what I was after. NO ONE typically talks about that stuff on here. I used the example in the padcast to bring this into a discussion. Was an easy way to back up my observations.

Residue control is also a huge topic which does apply to coatings when removing them. Glad you touched upon that

[Velocitybts]

I'm either mis-reading this , but what diff. does it make to some degree. You're only leveling it as much as you choose - to change how it looks in the refracted light. Whether you're leveling the coating or CC, you're still just leveling it enough to minimize said swirl/marring...

Sir,
You are correct in saying you only level as much as you need or choose too. However with coatings, the question was how much can you remove safely now that the coating was applied. If it was your original customer, and you took measurements of paint all over the car, documented them, and then applied the coating, you would then be able to reasonably tell how much paint is there. Yes, a few coatings are slightly measureable. Modesta being one of those.

If you did not have prior measurements, or wasn't your original customer, then you don't know how much actual clear is left on top of the paint. There is no way to actually know. So guessing on a high end customer car is not safe. So you start removing the coating by compounds and MF pads, but how do you know when its all off? Then you will have micromarring from the coating residue and will have to continue to polish that part and make level. So in the end, did you take a huge percentage of clear off the car just removing what you think is the coating? That is the danger. Especially when the panels are heated up under IR light, and the panels expand. When the panels contract, a portion of the coatings will embed themselves into the clear layer, so that would indicate even more of the clear you would have to take off, just to remove the coating.

These are real world issues with coatings in general. For DD it really doesn't make a huge difference. But for a possible collector car, or high end car this can be a possible problem. There is a lot of risk in taking coatings off cars. Yes, products like Modesta, 22ple, CQaurtz etc.... are much more difficult to deal with then some of the types like Pinnacle lotions and crèmes. So trying to bring this into discussion to see what others are doing about it. Its about time with the progression of coatings to start dealing with these issues.

[chefwong]

Velocity -

Isn't this the same challenge you approach anyway depending on time/money/value/skillset of the operator ?

I lost you on the last paragraph. What's the difference if you diminish the CC on a DD as opposed to diminishing the CC on a exotic. The value of CC to the customer is just the same.


How about super soft paint, where even just wiping off polish residue creates marring.
What do you do then. Refuse to polish cars with soft paint.

I don't think there is a universal answer to the OP.

[Velocitybts]

Velocity -

Isn't this the same challenge you approach anyway depending on time/money/value/skillset of the operator ?

I lost you on the last paragraph. What's the difference if you diminish the CC on a DD as opposed to diminishing the CC on a exotic. The value of CC to the customer is just the same.


How about super soft paint, where even just wiping off polish residue creates marring.
What do you do then. Refuse to polish cars with soft paint.




I don't think there is a universal answer to the OP.

Isn't this the same challenge you approach anyway depending on time/money/value/skillset of the operator ?------ Sure it is, however there are many many detailers (or hobbyists) using coatings nowadays as the newest next best thing since sliced bread. Have you seen a thread discussing the removal of it? I have seen it once, and I think Mike addressed it and said you just buff it off. But that was it. So, you have a "professional" detailer who coats a car, then the customers wife runs it through a car wash scratching it up. Their thought is to just buff the car again to remove the coating and scratches. But, since part of the coating embedded into the clear layer during the IR curing process, he must go even more into the paint to get to where it can be corrected. Thus, minimizing the clear layer to a degree where it may become non able to be corrected again. (however since there were no previouse paint measurements in that spot, you don't know how much of actual clear is left) The detailer likely doesn't think that its because of the coating that more was removed than necessary. This appears that it could be very problematic, unless you don't care and are only after the money for coatings.

What's the difference if you diminish the CC on a DD as opposed to diminishing the CC on a exotic. The value of CC to the customer is just the same.--------- Most DD have a lifetime of usefulness. Likely around 10 years and probably 95% of them will never be paint corrected. That's why you don't see Berettas or Cavaliers on the road any more. So, a DD being coated, and even paint corrected numerous times to where the CC layer is almost gone is likely not a big deal ever, plus if it were to be repainted or a panel repainted who cares as long as it matches. Likely doesn't hurt the value ever. Exotics-------Have you seen a 5k exotic for sale? No, because even in the worst shape at some point in their life they will start appreciating in value or remain at a set amount for a long time. So, if a panel is repainted on an exotic, well you just lost 20% of the cars value, and its likely not a contender for a collectible ever again. So, you the detailer should advise the owner to as how what you are using may affect the vehicle down the road. Using a coating will without doubt end up causing an increased removal of CC at some point in time. 5 Years later when the coating has worn down, and you go to correct it again, you will remove residual layers of coating still left embedded in the top layers of paint that will need removal before actually getting the swirls removed. Thus, since the embedding of coating material creates marring, when its gone, you will need to refine that marring. We are talking 10ths of microns here. But for an edge that only has 1 micron of CC to work with over the life of the car, this counts.

Exotic owners typically care about how the car will be down the road. I don't want to take too much clear off my Aston Martin DB9, because down the road for the next guy, or a collectible with original paint, it would be near impossible if only a minute layer is left. So, of course I want the paint to be perfect but I must minimize any and all things that reduce the clear layer.


How about super soft paint, where even just wiping off polish residue creates marring.
What do you do then. Refuse to polish cars with soft paint.---------- I don't do this as a business. However, I would flat refuse to take in a customer with a coating that wasn't applied by me for removal. Too much work, too risky and not worth the huge amount of time it takes to remove it, plus the loss of many MF pads in the process. Super Soft Paint------------I have one of the softest paints on cars now. On two of my cars. Yes, it is a pain!!!!!!!!!!!!. I worked with Mike several years ago on my 02' Mustang 5.0 in Navy Blue, where on the hood no matter what I did slight marring showed up.

Start investigating. I polished it perfect again, wiped it down and no marring. I used GTechniq Panel Wipe, and bingo, there was slight marring. So re-polished it and used Pinnacle lotion to remove the oils, removed it and bingo, there was slight marring. Re-polished it (didn't take much, 2 passes w/ no cut pad and SF4500), then washed it in citrus soap to removed the oils and blew the car off, bingo, marring again. Reworked it, then didn't use wash mit, but MF towels, and NO marring this time. Then used 22PLE w/ the 22ple pad provided and after curing again, dammit there was very slight marring. This time, we figured it was the applicator that did it, and only showed up after curing. So instead of working the CC again, I left it due to being so minute. 2 years later I did go back for the hood only (only place there was an issue) and this time used the sueade applicators and it came out perfect. Mike figured that the CC on the car was so soft, that anything basically touching it without lubrication was marring it.

Aston Martin----- I have paint correct 4 of them. I have not done my own (Black) due to just bought it and I am in the Middle East, so wont pick it up till Dec). They are a pain w/. soft paint sometimes. But, typically finish out very well. You just have to be careful and work surgically clean in doing them. I use MF cutting pads---likely around 6 per car blowing them out after every section area, Foam use about 8 pads for cutting and blowing them out after every section. Then I do the same with polishing pads - 8 per car blowing those out too. Depending on how soft it is, I might run around a friends car with a no cut pad (5-6 of them) using Rupes Diamond polish with very little pressure to finish it off. This allows for a show car finish with no marring. Soft Cars you have to be careful using applicator pads also. Only high quality MF towels allow for no marring also.

ALL I am trying to bring into discussion is the mere fact that Coatings can bring into the picture difficulties after application for customers, and how people on here are dealing with those. @Mike Lambert has added to this, confirming some of what I have written. But, none of the threads cover Coating issues after application. Hence this one, but it appears that no one thinks about it, or doesn't care.

[RPM_BR]

downside to anything Larry at AMMO does is he takes 20 minutes to explain what could be done in 30 seconds. his vids and instructional stuff is painful to watch. I don't even tune in anymore.

Yep, you're right, had to wait 45 minutes before kevin said what I wanted to hear.

[Velocitybts]

Yep, you're right, had to wait 45 minutes before kevin said what I wanted to hear.

Well you found that podcast, but.... was the information new to you? I am assuming it was, and in that case is it something you have thought about when applying coatings, or selling them to a customer? Plus other issues I have brought up?